Personal disclosure

Carly

Carly’s Couch — Therapists don’t usually share details of their lives to their clients. In this episode I unpack why that is and also “break the rules” by answering some questions about myself

 

TRANSCRIPT:

You’re listening to On the Couch with Carly. Carly’s Couch is a safe
space to talk. I’m a psychologist. But I’m not your pipe-smoking,
tweed wearing stereotype.

Hello and welcome to another episode of On the Couch with Carly.
Today I’d like to talk to you about personal disclosure in therapy i.e.
when we talk about disclosure we mean when a therapist discloses
anything about their personal life. And it’s quite an interesting
subject. And if you know anything about therapists you’ll know that
we are particularly prickly about disclosing personal information.
This is obviously different for different therapists, so everybody has
their own way of managing this. But we’re pretty much taught to
keep our personal information and our personal lives separate from
the therapy room. So much so, unlike if you go to a banker who has
their family pictures up on their desk or pictures of their kids, therapists
don’t usually have pictures of their families in their offices.
And, we also don’t really talk about our private lives when our clients
ask us about ourselves, or anything to do with our private lives. We
mostly avoid the subject or speak about the meaning of the
question, rather than actually giving any information.
And the reason for this is, well I suppose particularly, is because it’s
really important that when you come to therapy you feel like you
have full access to a person who is, well, really for you. And that they
not coming into the process with any of their stuff, with any of their
needs. So if you know for example that this person is not feeling well
or they’re struggling with their, I don’t know, let’s just assume you
come into therapy and you say to the therapist: “Oh, how are you”,
and the therapist says: “Urgh, I had such a bad day, you know, it’s
been so stressful”. Then all of a sudden you’re thinking about your therapist, and your therapist’s needs, and your therapist’s feelings and then the therapy is no longer just for you. So, I think the more you know about someone, the more you’re going to think about them, or you’re going to be concerned about them, and the more you going to think about them as a person who has thoughts and feelings and needs. Whereas, what you’re really supposed to do in therapy is think about yourself. So, that’s how I make sense of it. But I also think, and I know theoretically that we have to try and keep our stuff out of the therapy room, and try and keep our personal lives out because we really want our clients to not know us and to almost see us as a blank canvas on which to project their interpretations of who we are and what we’re about. Because the truth is we use those to make sense of you as the client.

So, let me give you an example. If I’m sitting there as a therapist and
I ask you about, say for example how you feeling about your exams
coming up. And my question stimulates this thought in you that I’m
being particularly obsessive about your marks or I’m questioning
your grades.
And you say to me: “Why do you always have to be so concerned
with my grades?”, something like that. Then I can really help to
interpret that around that being something you’re doing as the
client. You’re projecting that onto me. You’re putting that onto me. That’s
what we call transference. That’s when something about your past,
your experience in relationships is being projected onto the
therapist. You have the feeling that I’m doing something in the
relationship that I’m probably not doing. It’s just something you’ve
interpreted based on feelings you have of probably someone else
who was like that. So possibly either your mom, your dad or someone else in your life was obsessed with marks or that’s why you feel that I’m being like that in that moment. And, we’ll get to that, and it will be a
process that you will go through and can start to unpack that, and
make sense of that. Make sense of the feelings that are connected to
that.

So, that is the bottom line, obviously this extends to, you know, we
try and hide our personal lives for the most part from our clients, and
that includes social media. So, for the most part, clients shouldn’t be
able to access our private social media. It’s something I had to learn
the hard way. There is a need to keep that stuff private but obviously
that’s quite a new problem that has been facing psychologists, only
in recent times. But it’s a grey area because now I have my blog, you know, which has got some personal information on it and my clients can access that. It’s on the internet. So I just have to be really aware of what I put
out, same with this podcast, you know, I’ve got to be really aware of
what I’m putting out there. That it’s not something that would go
beyond what I’d say in the therapy room.

So ja, I think that is quite an interesting concept just to think about- if
you aren’t aware of that as someone who isn’t aware of what this
profession entails. It’s a very fascinating aspect of the work that we
kind of keep our private lives very very hidden from our clients.
There’s another element of that, and that is if we see our clients out
in public, we don’t acknowledge them. That’s often to protect our
clients because we don’t want our clients to have to explain to
someone who that person is- if they haven’t told them that they’re in
therapy. But it’s also for that same reason, that we try and keep our
personal and professional life separate.
But in saying that, I decided to play a little bit with that today. And so
even though I’m fully on board with the fact that psychologists
should not be disclosing personal information. Although I am aware
that there are times when that is so unavoidable and you just have

to deal with it. Sometimes there’s things that just come up, I mean I
went on maternity leave last year and very obviously I couldn’t hide
that anymore, at some point. So, there’s things we really do have to
acknowledge, that are impossible to hide about who we are. And
that’s okay, we’ve got to manage that, we have to work with that.
But when it comes to choosing to disclose personal information, I
thought I would, sort of, walk the line a little bit today in this session.
And I decided to go onto the internet and google questions for
psychologists. And what I came up with was this great website called:
Psych Central’, where they ask 10 questions of different
psychologists every week. And I thought I would just play along with
that, and answer these 10 questions.
And they are a little bit personal but not really, they’re mostly about
the work. But in a way it’s a little bit different from what you would
get if you met me in therapy because in therapy you don’t get the
opportunity to ask me any questions. I suppose that’s not entirely
true, people ask me questions all the time, you just might not get an
incredibly satisfying answer in the way you would if you were
interviewing me for a magazine.

So, here is a kind of, version of an interview that I’m going to offer
you. I’m interviewing myself though. So, there’s 10 questions, okay.
The first question is:

The first question is: What surprised you the most about being a
therapist?

My answer to that is that what’s surprising about being a
therapist, and I suppose I have been doing this now……Well I started
my training 10 years ago, basically. I suppose what’s really surprising
for me is how interesting this job still is to me, how intrigued I am by
human lives, how fascinated I am by human stories, how much a
privilege and a pleasure it is to be on a journey with another human
being while they discover themselves. I really am stimulated by my
work. I’m stimulated on many levels. I’m stimulated intellectually,
I’m stimulated creatively, I feel like my work is creative, I have to find creative solutions. I have to think creatively in terms of looking at a
group of problems or a model of a person and try and figure out, you
know what I’m seeing, what am I looking at.
Ja, so it’s fascinating, it’s fascinating work. I think that that’s such a
privilege and such a great honour to do a job that you feel stimulated by. I see a lot of people who are often, sort of, halfway through their
careers, or only a short way down the line in their careers and feeling
a bit demotivated and feeling under-stimulated, and they’re looking
for something else.
And I’m so lucky I have that feeling in my work. Obviously, it doesn’t
always feel this way. There’s definitely some moments where there’s
like a “Urghhh” feeling but its few and far between, and we always
come back to this place of: “Wow, this is exciting.”
The other thing I thought about when I saw this question: “What
surprises you the most?” I suppose it’s this idea that people give
themselves such a hard time. We don’t give ourselves enough credit,
I don’t think. I see so many people who come to me at their lowest
points, and what I see in them that they don’t see in themselves is so
often this incredible resilience, this strength, this power, this
immense resilience that they have. That if they could see it they
would feel they could overcome anything. They would feel they
could really do anything in this world. And it’s such a beautiful thing
when someone gets it, when someone finds that inner
resourcefulness inside of themselves, and connects with it, and really
believes in themselves.

Most people have so much gumption. They can go out and get what
they want, obviously that’s not the case for everyone but even the
people that don’t feel that way- we get there in the end. There’s
something so beautiful about actualising that, and about facilitating
that for someone. So ja, that’s always my biggest shock is how little credit we give ourselves. And how people come into therapy seeing the worst of
themselves, and really ignoring the parts of themselves that are so
capable, and so amazing.

The second question is: “What’s the latest and greatest book you’ve
read related to mental health psychology or psychotherapy?”

I have to be honest with you, I’m not so into reading psychology books that
much. When I read, I read for pleasure, mostly.
But I have really really loved and gotten into the work of
Brené Brown recently. So she is a stand out for me, a self-help
author although I really dislike that term- I don’t really dislike
the term, I just dislike the industry, let’s call it that. That kind of: “Get
fixed in 10 steps industry.”, that doesn’t appeal to me. But what I
love about Brené Brown is that she speaks to our common humanity.
She speaks to aspects that we can all resonate within ourselves. No
one would read what she has written and say: “Urgh, I cannot relate
to this at all.” She’s really relatable and she writes in a beautiful way
as well. And if you haven’t ever heard about Brené  Brown, let me
tell you, watch her Ted Talks, she has written a few books. But her
Ted Talks are really easily accessible, you can just google them now.
The one is on vulnerability, and the other one is on shame. She’s a
brilliant speaker, she also has a Netflix special. She’s also been on
Oprah’s: “Super Soul Sunday.” She’s quite a babe. She’s doing the work. But her books are also really great. I’d say the stand out one for me was: “Daring greatly.” I really refer to that a lot in my work.
I also love anything written by Oliver Sacks, his now passed, but he
was a brilliant neurologist and therapist. He has a brilliant sense of
humour. He wrote a really great novel as well-I’m trying to think
what it’s called now.

But one of the books he’s famous for is: “The man who mistook his
wife for a hat”, or something like that. And he writes about
neurological disorders, and how interesting they are, and what they
teach us about how the brain works, and how our minds work.
And then in terms of a more clinical kind of collection of books,
anything written by Nancy McWilliams really stimulates me
clinically. She writes for clinicians. She makes sense of psychological
theories in a way that really jumps out of the page. So she really
makes me feel like: “Oh this is what it’ll feel like when I work with
these kind of personalities in the room, and this is how to think
about a human being from start to finish.”
So the two books I’m referring to, I think is: “Clinical formulation”,
and gosh I can’t think of what the other one is. But therapists would
read these books. I would not say that anyone else would be
interested in reading them. Okay, so that’s that question.

Number 3: “What’s the biggest myth about therapy?”

So, definitely the myth that only really messed up
people go to therapy, or only disturbed psycho people go to therapy.
Such a problem that is the myth, I guess there is so much taboo
around going to therapy-although that is decreasing a lot- and I’m
loving that.
But ja, I think particularly in conservative cultures, particularly in
religious groups there’s a real kind of scepticism around therapy.
That it’s a real kind of, I don’t know, pseudo science. Or it’ not real
talking to someone, paying to speak to someone or whatever, why
don’t you just speak to your friend- that kind of thing.
But I think the other idea that is also a myth around therapy is that if
you go to therapy then it’s a sign of weakness, and that’s a huge pity.
Because honestly I think it’s one of the bravest things I think you
could do, is to choose to go to therapy and encounter yourself. To really face your feelings, and your fears, and all the thing you are
haunted by. You going and you saying: “Okay this is me, this is what I
struggle with.” I think that is flipping brave. It takes balls to go and to want to face that stuff. Sometimes we are forced to because we are such a mess
in ourselves but that doesn’t mean it’s not brave. Because you still
have to do it, you still have to walk the walk. And that’s the thing
about therapy: it’s not a quick fix, it’s not just a walk into my office,
have a conversation and leave better. It’s an on-going work in
progress. You have to stick it out. You have to plug away, and that’s
the part I think takes such immense courage-to stick it out with
yourself day in and day out. Week in, and week out.

The 4th question is: “What seems to be the biggest obstacle for
clients in therapy?”


So look in South Africa the number 1 biggestobstacle is finances. I think private psychologists are flipping expensive. We looking at a medical aid rate around R900.00 an hour here, so that’s what I charge my private clients as well. It’s a lot of money to put aside every week, to dedicate every month. You really have to be earning well to be able to afford that, and if you can’t
afford that it can feel like a really huge squeeze to try and find that
money. And really hard to make that choice then, to put that money
into something like that. So, I think that is one of the biggest barriers that keep people from therapy. I think also once you in the therapy, self-sabotage is a huge thing. We tend to confront the stuff. Then when you realise that
coming into therapy entails looking into your shit and actually
dealing with it, and every week you have to look at it again and again
and again. I think it can get really hard and people want to run away.
Very often the choice is made to rather just bail, rather than dealing
with it- and that’s really unfortunate but it happens a lot. And so,
although probably consciously you’re saying all sorts of other things like: I’m choosing to end therapy because I’m prioritising this or I’m
focusing on that. I don’t have the time or it’s too much effort or
money. Or whatever it may be. But the underlying reasons are
probably a bit of fear, a bit of resistance. You know, not being really
fully committed.
And then I think a big thing that comes with therapy, which doesn’t
happen with everyone. Is that there is a certain kind of client who
will come to you and say to you as a therapist: “Help me fix this,
make this better, solve this problem for me”, and I think its really
easy to get into the trap of expecting the therapist to do the work for
you.
Or expecting anyone else to do the work for you. And wanting a
solution, wanting a fix-rather than realising that the responsibility is
always going to be on your shoulders. You have to figure out your
way through, it’s on you to work through the difficulties and to make
different choices for yourself. And I can’t do that for you, I can sit
with you and think things through with you, and make sense of it
with you. But at the end of the day you’re living your life. And I think
people really do become undone at that stage of therapy, when it’s:
“Sorry the ball is your court now. You’ve got to make those changes.”
And it can sometimes become a little bit of a loop where we’re constantly
talking about: Why are you not making the changes? What’s difficult
about making the changes? What’s preventing you or what’s the
barrier?” That can be a bit difficult. And so it’s really about getting in
your own way then, the obstacle then is yourself.

The 5th question is: “What’s the most challenging part about
being a therapist?”

So, I mentioned in my previous episode about confidentiality, and
how I can’t speak to anyone about my work. And I think that is one
of the most challenging aspects of my work. Not being able to talk about it with other people, and having to keep everything to myself. I
think it does feel quite lonely and isolated sometimes-not being able
to share on a daily basis with someone.
And then also dealing with really intense interactions. If people come
to therapy and they’re really struggling, sometimes people bring a
whole lot of stuff into the room- that is very intense and very
challenging.
And particular personalities can be really hard work, so people can
be very demanding of therapy, and of therapists. And it’s hard to
think through everything all the time. As a therapist you can’t just
switch of, you can’t just go auto pilot. You’ve got to be constantly be
present and in the moment, and thinking, and working on
understanding the person, understanding what you’re feeling,
understanding what they’re feeling, making sense of it in terms of
their history, and they’ve told you about themselves. So it’s a lot
going on, the more intense the experience with the client, the more
challenging it is to, kind of, keep your thinking cap on, in a way. To
keep present, and to not resort to coping mechanisms, really. So, it’s
a lot of work, and lot of taking responsibility for your own feelings,
and working with yourself in the moment.
The other thing I also struggle with is people who are resistant to
being helped, and they are struggling so much. And they come into
therapy and they’re almost just defeatist, and it’s very slow going-
where they get in the way of their own progress. I suppose it’s just
sad for me, and hard for me to witness someone who is not willing to
take the help, and make use of the process that they’re in, or make
use of anything that is in your lives to assist themselves into a better
place-and it happens a lot.
I think the biggest challenge with this work is to not get defeated by
witnessing and bearing witness to so much hard stuff. So many
trauma’s, and so much suffering, to be a witness to that, to sit with that with someone, to hold that space but not let it get you down- I
think that’s quite challenging.

Number 6 is: “What do you love about being a therapist?”

So, I love the hours. I love the flexibility. I love the fact I can dictate my
schedule. So, I currently only work certain hours of each day, and I
sort of manage my schedule so that I have flexibility and that I have
time off.
And I really love that, especially as a new mom. It’s given me the
greatest gift of having time with my child. I don’t think everyone gets
that. I think a lot of people are forced to work jobs where you have
to work 8 hours a day, you have to work according to a certain
schedule that is prescribed- and I’m lucky I don’t have to do that. I
can dictate my hours, I can decide exactly when I want to work. I
unfortunately have to stick those hours. I have to work them every
week but for the most part I think I have an incredible amount of
flexibility and balance in my life.
And I just love the fact that my job is about connecting with other
people, connecting to a common humanity. What a great privilege,
that’s what my job is. You know that my interest is being with people
and understanding them, and being with them in the hard times, and
helping them through it. I think it’s beautiful, I really do appreciate
that.
And it’s really cool to help someone. It’s really rewarding to help
someone to feel better about themselves, to facilitate someone who
is making progress, or to help someone take a new direction in life,
to help bring people greater awareness, to help them through
difficult times. This is pretty special stuff, so that’s hugely rewarding.
It keeps me going, it’s my fix- so I don’t know If I believe in altruism.
I’m not altruistic. I don’t do this job because I’m somehow better
than anyone else, because I’m self-sacrificing, or whatever. I do this
job because it fulfils me. I do this job because helping people makes me feel good, that’s why I do it. Its beneficial to me.I love it.That’s the bottom line.

So, number 7 is: “What’s the best advice you can offer give on living
a meaningful life?”

So, I think to start you have to be honest with yourself. I really am a honest person, some people would say too honest- I don’t think that’s a thing. I’m very clear. I’m very honest. I’m truthful. I don’t have a filter sometimes in the sense that I say things as I feel them but I really believe that you have to start by being honest with yourself. What are you feeling? What’s happening with you? Figuring out who you are is such a big part of becoming a better person, in enjoying life, in finding meaning in life- is knowing yourself. I think that is what most ancient philosophers have said: “Know thyself”. So, therapy really helps with that. The clearer you are of
yourself, the more you understand yourself better- the easier it is to
be honest.

And then to really take responsibility for your life. I also feel like the
other thing about a meaningful life is to be grateful. To look at what
we have, rather than what we don’t have. I really am a proponent of
gratitude. I always used to run this thing on my blog: “Gratitude
Wednesdays”. Just to remind everyone, once a week that there’s lots
to be grateful for, That you can always, at any time write lists of what
you’re grateful for, and one should- it really helps the mood. So yes I
really do believe in the power of gratitude.

Number 8: “If you had your schooling career choice to do all over
again, would you choose the same profession/ professional path?

And if not, what would you do differently and why?

So yes, I think I would choose the same. Sho, I sometimes fantasise about other career paths but I think they’re mostly fantasies. I imagine maybe
going into banking, like being super rich. A wish list and business, not
caring about anyone. I’m actually happy with what I’ve got and I
don’t need more. I don’t necessarily think rich people are happy. I
really don’t think that’s the key to a meaningful life. But ja, it’s not real. I’m actually really happy with my choices. I suppose I can do
something more…… No there’s actually nothing I’d rather do than
this, that’s kinda cool.

Number 9: “If there’s one thing you’d wish that your clients or patients knew about treatment or mental illness, what would it be?

Okay, I think people feel alone a lot of the time, and they feel that they’re the only people that feel these feelings. “I’m the only one with this struggle. I’m the only one who has this problem.” And it’s really hard to get past that, like how do you move into a place that you share with people that you struggle, starting to share your vulnerability. Most people just hide that from everybody, they just think, “No I just got to be happy and, fun and playful that’s what people like. And if I tell them that I’m struggling, they not gonna like me, they not gonna hang out with me. I’m going to be
Debby downer.” So, they end up feeling worse about the fact that they’re feeling crap. Then they feel almost guilty, or bad, or shameful about the fact that they’re having these struggles, these difficulties. That’s why I think
therapy is so great. It’s so important to realise that everybody
struggles. I wish everybody knew this. I wish that everybody was
told all the time that’s it’s okay to struggle. That everybody has hard
times that everybody feels these yucky feelings sometimes. And
that its okay, and that those parts of you are not the bad parts. That
they can be included in how you see yourself, and that it’s okay. So, I
really think therapy helps that whole aspect, you do feel less alone
when someone is completely acknowledging your feelings as normal,
understandable reactions to your experiences.
I suppose I do believe that we have the power to change our lives,
and you know, there is almost a limitless to our human potential.
And that includes our transformational abilities. I think one of the
things I really recommend people to do when they’re in therapy, is to
look at the small steps that you take. One of the things we do as humans beings is we want to go from one to ten. We want to see a
radical shift. And if we don’t see that we feel like we not making
ground, we not getting anywhere. And it’s so important to
acknowledge one to two, two to three. You know, to go from one to
three is a huge jump in accomplishment. It’s a huge change, it’s a
huge shift. It takes incremental steps to make radical change but
radical change is always possible.
Always, always, always possible.
It’s so beautiful to see when it does happen. And people look back,
and they go: “Oh my word, I’m not where I used to be. Yeah okay,
I’m not where I want to be but I don’t think we will ever be where we
want to be.” It’s fun to be excited about the journey ahead. To still
look forward to things, to still want to achieve things, or want to go
further into something. We’re never gonna arrive there, right? So the most important thing is to acknowledge where you’ve come from and what you’ve been through, and able to achieve thus far.

Okay, the last question is: “What personally do you do to relieve
stress in your life?

This is probably the most personal I’m prepared to go in terms of personal disclosure. But to wrap up this episode, I’m
gonna give you a little bit of myself and to teach you a little bit of
what I do to take care of myself.
So, I am a huge, huge believer in self-care. I talk about self-care a lot.
It’s a bit of a buzz word; it’s a bit of phrase going around at the moment.
It’s got a bit of a reputation about being about going to the nail
salon, having a massage- it’s quite ‘bourgie’. What I really think is
important about self-care, is that it’s about the self. So, let’s look at
that.
I guess I’m telling you a little bit about myself then, in this process.
So, I believe to take care of oneself, to not get stressed in life- one
has to have balance. So, you’ve got to have to find the different
aspects of yourself, and you’ve got to stimulate those different aspects. So, I really like to, in my personality I have so many different
aspects in my personality: on the one hand Im very outgoing , I love
being social, I’m quite a social butterfly. So, even though this is in stark
contrast to my work, very cerebral to, Im sitting, Im quiet , Im
listening , Im in my head a a lot- that means I need to balance that
out with going out and seeing friends, and going to friends , and
going to events and being stimulated in a social way. Where I get to
be outgoing and extroverted-which is my nature. That’s very
important for me, I need to feel like I have that outlet. Obviously
when I was younger I was a lot more involved in the social world, but
as I have gotten older, I suppose it happens to the best of us, I just
sorted of retreated a little bit in social engagement. But its still
important. It may not be happening as often as it used to happen,
but it has to happen still. When it doesn’t happen it feels like all is
not right- I need that outlet to feel balanced, and good, and not
stressed out.
So, the other thing I like to do, which I always think is such as healthy
and great thing, and such a brilliant thing about living in Cape Town
is that I like going for walks and particularly walking in nature.
Anywhere, where I can see see nature. Where i’m out and in the
forest, on the beach, on the promenade, in the park, whatever. We
have so much beautiful nature around us. And for me, when Im
stressed or thinking about something too much, if Im just feeling
tense or my shoulders are stiff from sitting down at the desk too
long-to just step out and go for a walk, and stretch my legs, and hear
the birds and the trees, or hear the waves lapping the shore- that for
me is immediately therapeutic and calming and soothes me and
helps me to find my equilibrium again.
The other thing I also do, it’s a kid of hack I have developed: Is that
when I’m feeling sad or lonely, or like Im sore or tender inside
emotionally. I like to call this giving myself a hug. What I do is I make
popcorn, I make hot chocolate, and I put a really silly rom-com on-
like Notting Hill. And I put it on Netflix and crawl into bed, and I eat my popcorn and drink my hot chocolate and watch Netflix. Even
though at times that behaviour is problematic. I suppose I could
interpret it as lazy, unproductive- we have such amazing ways of
being hard on ourselves. But for me, it’s the way I approach it. So, I
think about It as if it is me giving myself a hug, me tucking myself into
bed, giving myself some love for little bit of time. While Im doing it I
feel nourished, I feel nurtured, I feel taken care of-that’s my
approach. So that’s a little hack of mine.
So ja, in terms of self-care, my approach is it really doesn’t matter
what you do for self-care. As long as you know that you are doing it
for you. It’s either something that makes you excited, or stimulated. I
always use the example of something that make your heart zing, you
know those things that are just: “ Ahhh, this feels good.” Or its
something that soothes you, something that really provides comfort.
It like drinking a nice cup of tea, reading a book- that’s self-care,
that’s saying you doing this for you. You doing this for no one else
but you. And it’s to do it mindfully. Whatever you want to do, do it mindfully. Do it with the intention of soothing yourself, of helping yourself
through something difficult, of attending to your emtions, of
regulating your emotions, seeing yourself through a hard time and
making it better- that’s self-care. And failing that, have a glass of
wine…No no no… So, mostly I want to to do something healthy and
constructive, obviously having a glass of wine is fine. We all know
that is fine- everything in moderation. But we all know there’s
crutches we use that are….. We can call it self-care but it’s really
unhealthy. Having a glass of wine is not that. Having too much wine
and feeling shit about yourself, that is not great!


Anyway, that’s me for today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I would
love to hear from you. So hit me up.And I think its about time to tell
you to subscribe to my podcast. I mean I haven’t done that yet. So, if
you’ve been liking what you’ve been hearing, if you wanna hear more- subscribe and stay tuned, there’ll be more episodes coming
up. And ja, let me know if you have any thoughts about this episode
or future episodes. I’d love to hear from you, so hit me up
@onthecouchwithcarly. Thank you and goodbye.

This podcast is recorded at Edible Audio in Cape Town,
South Africa. Edited by Edible Audio. Original music by: Alex
Smillie

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